Dr. Kit Green, On the Record
By Richard Dolan
August 24, 2019
Intro: The Wilson Document Leak
In early June 2019, two very interesting and controversial documents were leaked to the UFO community which have caused some commotion. I don’t think this commotion is going to stop any time soon.
I have already spoken and written at some length regarding one of these documents – called by some the “Core Secrets Document” and more often what I simply call the Wilson Document, or Wilson Memo. In my view, this 15-page document ranks as the ufological leak of the century so far. It’s an extended close transcription written by Dr. Eric Davis of the National Institute of Discovery Science (NIDS) in October 2002, and concerns a conversation he had with Vice Admiral Thomas R. Wilson (ret.) at an undisclosed location regarding Wilson’s knowledge of a deeply classified program to reverse engineer non-human (alien) technology while Wilson served as Deputy Chief of Intelligence for the Joint Chiefs of Staff in 1997.
Just as significantly, the notes described Wilson’s distress over being denied access to this program once he learned about it, despite his assumption that through his position he had legal oversight over this program. The team that denied him access were private employees of the contracting firm, not U.S. government personnel, although they had the backing ultimately of the Director of Special Projects for the Office for the Undersecretary of Defense for Acquisition and Technology (OUSDAT). This is where apparently much (if not most or all) of U.S. special access programs (SAP) are contained within the bureaucracy of the Department of Defense. Even so, it appeared to Wilson that the entire program was dominated by the contracting firm, and U.S. government personnel seemed mostly irrelevant, as far as he could tell.
Most UFO researchers who have studied this memo can easily see that it is authentic. The information contained within is fully amenable to examination, and increasingly we are seeing researchers delving into the minutia of what it contains to find that the information checks out.
Even the “no comments” about the document are noteworthy. Although neither Davis nor any of his colleagues have elected to authenticate the Wilson Document (it is after all an extremely delicate matter for them professionally), the “no comments” are practically offered as explanations, almost as apologies. Dr. Hal Puthoff, who for many years has been closely associated with Davis, graciously wrote this to me on June 12:
“With regard to authenticity, we have no comment on the documents recently being circulated. As some of us still retain USG security clearances and remain bound by the secrecy oaths we have taken, we believe it is in the best interest of the USG and ourselves not to comment on any documents that purport to describe classified USG programs or information.”
For myself, I’ve never had a doubt about the document. As I have said from the beginning – indeed from long before this all came out – I was shown two of the pages of this document back in 2006. I never forgot the statement by Wilson that this was technology “not made by man, not by human hands.”
I’ve also discussed the matter a number of times over the years (something covered very well in a piece by Guiliano Marinkovic). It turns out that I wasn’t the only one to talk about the contents of those notes. Former astronaut Dr. Edgar Mitchell did, as did UFO researcher Dr. Steven Greer and several others.
It quickly became apparent that the leak of this document occurred as a result of the death of Edgar Mitchell in 2017. I don’t know the full story of how some of his documents got into other hands, but I did interview James Rigney of Australia about this. James is second-in-line to the source of the documents. He knows who has them and is keeping that person’s identity private. I have been made to understand, however, that the acquisition of these papers occurred legally and above-board. I was also made to understand that this was a private initiative, not something orchestrated by any intelligence community. In other words, it wasn’t an ‘op.’
There has been much more to say about all this, by myself and other researchers, so we can leave the Wilson Memo at that for now. A few die-hard skeptics maintain it’s all a hoax. Let them howl into the wind. The world is moving on.
The Alien Autopsy Email Leak
But the main subject of this article isn’t the Wilson Memo, fascinating though that is. Rather, it’s the other major document to leak from the papers of Edgar Mitchell. (There is a third leak, which was publicized by researcher Grant Cameron on his Facebook page, of a 1996 letter by NIDS founder Robert Bigelow to Mitchell, in advance of a NIDS board meeting).
This other leak is a series of exchanges from early 2001 and totals eleven pages. The main subject of this exchange concerns the infamous “alien autopsy” film of 1995 by Ray Santilli. This leak actually made it out to the world just before the Wilson Memo and was quickly overshadowed by it. But it’s interesting, for sure. I wrote about it almost immediately.
For those who need catching up, the Santilli film was featured on Fox television in 1995 and became an international sensation. Within a short period of time, the consensus of most UFO researchers was that it was a hoax. But in early 2001, a group of distinguished scientists associated with NIDS were discussing the Santilli film among themselves, quietly, not for outside discussion. Now, it’s interesting that even this late (2001) there was a genuine discussion among these individuals about the possible reality of the film.
It’s even more interesting that the person who was being asked to provide his professional opinion, Dr. Christopher (Kit) Green, stated point-blank in the emails that the alien being in the video was “real” and not human. Kit Green was a CIA intelligence officer, and one of the most qualified medical professionals you will find anywhere. His areas of expertise in connection with the biological sciences are broad and deep. He also has had a longstanding interest in and connection to the UFO subject in various ways over a distinguished career. So when you read that statement in the emails, it’s something that can give most people at least some pause.
But all of the above can ultimately be chalked off to just someone’s opinion, no matter how educated or intelligent that person may be. What got my attention was something else that came up in the emails: that Green had several briefings on the subject of UFOs, and on one occasion (described as taking place in “1987/88”), he was shown alien autopsy reports and still images. In the email, he stated that the images he was shown in his briefing were “consistent” with the being depicted in the Santilli film. Elsewhere in the email exchange, he went so far as to say it was the same being.
Obviously, that complicates matters a bit. None of this proves that the Santilli film or the alien being depicted in it is “real.” But if Kit Green was indeed shown images that were consistent with what Ray Santilli created seven or eight years later, then we have an interesting situation. We might ask, if it’s a fake, was Santilli or his associates working with the intelligence community somehow? Or is there some level of reality to what’s depicted in that film after all?
Contacting Kit Green
Immediately, I wrote to Kit Green. I would describe our relationship up to that point as cordial but not close. We had spoken to each other from time to time over the years. He’s always worth listening to. My exchange with him is listed in the article I wrote on June 6.
Long story short, he told me that (a) he does not believe the being in the Santilli film is an alien and hasn’t believed that for a long time, and (b) that he believes he was hoaxed by the Pentagon in that briefing from the 1980s.
While I wasn’t inclined to debate Kit Green, his explanation struck me as weak, and I said so. Part of this article provides his more detailed explanation.
Meanwhile, there are individuals connected to ufology who treat these questions the way theologians treat heresy. Some have gone so far as to say the email thread itself is fake, which you would think to be a laughably embarrassing position to take, except that these people don’t seem to be embarrassed. Other critics, like Philip Mantle, are more substantive. Mantle has done a great deal of writing about the Santilli film, and has laid out the case that it is fake from beginning to end. He has contended that since the whole film was made up by Santilli and his partner Spyros Melaris in 1995, Green could not possibly have seen what he claimed to have seen. Philip told me this early on in a private email.
Fine, but I was more interested in what Kit Green had to say. Kit and I arranged for an interview in mid-July, just before I did some extended travel. It seems he and I both had a misconception about what would happen. He believed we were having a preliminary interview only, after which we would do our formal, proper one. I had the idea, especially since our conversation was so engaging, that this was the one interview, and moreover that I would be permitted to release a transcript. In fact, much of what he said turned out to be off the record, so we worked it out. The result is this article, which discusses everything he wanted on the record, which turns out to be most of what we discussed anyway.
I should add here that although I gave him the chance to correct any errors of fact or misunderstanding, Kit insisted he would not request any final editing for substantive changes whatsoever. And he did not.
My first question had to do with the authenticity of the email leak.
RD: Actually the question I want to ask is [about] the eleven-page email that I sent you, which is the one that has been leaked. It’s dated March 21, 2001. Do you consider that to be a genuine email? Is that something that rings a bell with you? Is that authentic?
KG: Absolutely, it’s authentic. I can say that while I never actually saw that specific email, I saw the one that Eric [Davis] was describing as being the one he was modifying.
RD: This was the one from February.
KG: Correct. He probably also sent me that one [RD note, meaning the email from March 21, 2001]. The only thing I can tell you is, as far as what I am reported, what I am stated to have said, is one hundred percent true, and what is there as a cut and paste from a series of my emails, I remember completely as being email [unclear] of what I said.
This should settle any continuing discussion on at least this aspect of the matter. The email is authentic and yes, there was obviously cutting and pasting, presumably after the fact by Davis or Mitchell.
The Pentagon Briefing
Now on to matters of substance within the 2001 email thread itself. Within it, Kit Green is quoted as saying (Davis’s words but accurate according to Green):
“The Alien Autopsy film/video is real, the alien cadaver is real, and the cadaver seen in the film/video is the same as the photos Kit saw at the Pentagon during briefing #2 [1987/1988].”
And again in the emails, this time in response to a question by NIDS scientist Dr. Colm Kelleher:
(2) Can you relate the Santilli videotake in detail to the autopsy reports that you viewed (via your briefings and reports) as being the same or similar creature?
And finally this exchange between Davis and Green:
From Eric –
… did you come to a final conclusion or opinion on whether or not the body was fake or real? You say below “the video is real”, so is that your indirect answer to this question …?
ASKED AND ANSWERED. WHAT CAN BE MORE DIRECT THAN ‘THE VIDEO IS REAL’ …
Incidentally, I asked Kit Green if he could pin down the date of that briefing. His answer remains no, although he has it in his archives. “I’ve not gone back and looked at them to try to pin down whether it was 87 or 88.”
In any case, that’s the fundamental background. Readers are encouraged to read through the complete exchange at length.
But Green’s perspective today is not the same as it was in 2001. Green now openly states his earlier assessment of the Santilli creature was wrong. “I assumed it was alien,” he said, “because earlier, I had been warranted [for thinking] in a briefing with a uniformed officer in the Pentagon that it was an alien.” He later “found out that was untrue. . . . I was totally positive it was an alien body then, twenty years ago, but I am positive now that it was not.”
The Dangling Carrot
Before getting into his reasons, it turns out even more background is in order.
Through the 1980s, when he was still a CIA intelligence officer, one of Green’s associates “was a recently retired, extremely senior general officer from the United States Air Force.” He also happened to be a senior physician. In the Air Force, this man’s area of work was as a liaison on the “classified manned space flight program.” After he left the Air Force he went into private industry under contract, “like they all do.” His classified work was in “an aspect of the space program.”
This indicates, quite literally, a secret space program, something that is no great surprise, even when considering solely conventional U.S. military strategies and perceived needs for operating in Earth orbit and beyond. Indeed, even the New York Times acknowledged the existence of a manned, classified space program that existed decades ago. Still, it’s an interesting statement.
In 1982, Green hired this person to be on a science board at the CIA with him. Within a year or two (“in 1983, 84”) this man said to Green that “the stories about alien incursions, recoveries, and information [are] true.” Moreover, he was going to get Green cleared for the relevant programs. One key reason apparently was the lack of physicians cleared for them. Green was excited about the prospect.
However, this man could not get Green cleared. He tried repeatedly. When Green resigned from CIA during the late 1980s, he was able to get cleared for “a couple of the programs,” including something that he said was a very sensitive subject, “but not the ones that had to do with UFOs or aliens or autopsies.”
Even during Green’s retirement from the CIA while with General Motors, his retired Air Force colleague continued telling him that he was working to get Green cleared “into the program that has to do with aliens and UFOs.” But it never happened, despite a few times when it seemed to Green that it might happen.
It was in this context that Green’s late-80s briefing in the Pentagon occurred. He was called in and somehow made to understand this was going to be The One. He entered a briefing room, which was a SCIF – Sensitive Compartmented Information Facility. The security officer took his credentials, checked him through, and found that he was indeed approved for the briefing.
In Green’s words:
“An officer came in uniform, took me into the briefing room, sat me down, showed me the materials, showed me the pictures and said, “you will not get any further information today and there’s no video.”
I said, “I was told I was going to get to see a video.”
He said, “you are not.”
I said, “I was told I might be signing some additional paperwork.”
He said, “you will not.”
And I left. I thought what I’d seen was legitimate but not the full thing. Now, I think what I was shown was a hoax and not the real thing.”
Instead of a film, which he was expecting, Green was shown written autopsy reports of what he was led to believe concerned alien bodies, as well as glossy photos of what appeared to be an alien autopsy procedure of some sort.
Images are the Same
This is interesting enough on its own, but what makes this even more controversial is his continued assertion that “several shots” from the briefing did appear in the Santilli film from 1995. Remember, the Santilli film dates from 1995, seven or eight years later. Here is Green’s statement:
“Several, let me repeat, several shots from the pictures I was shown, then [later] appeared in the grainy Santilli film. Not the body. I never said it was the body. It was the face still. It was the shot of the subject. It was the shot of the wall. It was the shot of the table. It was the shot of a part of a foot. It was not the shot that I could say was the same body.”
This point is too important to ignore. Green insists the body was different. But the face apparently was the same, as well as other elements in the stills that he was shown.
It’s entirely possible for someone to argue that his memory of what he was shown is flawed. Perhaps what he saw was similar, not the same (although even this would be very interesting). But as far as Kit Green can remember from an event now over 30 years ago, parts of what later appeared in the Santilli film were shown to him in this Pentagon briefing from the late 1980s. This is what he maintained in the 2001 emails, and he maintains it now.
Even so, he believes that the Santilli film is a fake, and also that what he was shown in the Pentagon was a hoax. I asked him to elaborate on this. His fundamental answer was that over the years he has “put together innumerable pieces of data in which nothing I’ve ever been shown, or told about the program allegedly with aliens and autopsies, none of that body of information has turned out to be true.” Or that he could confirm.
I asked him if by saying this he was simply trying to protect himself from a renewed storm of controversy. I offered my opinion that it seemed unlikely that someone of his stature would be hoaxed in a Pentagon briefing, one that took place within a SCIF no less. And a risk, too, since his medical expertise is of the highest level, and since he has read and prepared countless autopsy reports. It seemed like a stretch that he would be hoaxed by the Pentagon in his briefing. And why, I wondered. Why would the Pentagon hoax him?
Other Alien Autopsy Videos
Before answering this, Kit Green had more revelations. He told me that he had in fact seen quite a few videos of purported alien autopsies, roughly a dozen. Other than the one he was shown at the Pentagon, all these others were brought to his home in Detroit, left in his mailbox or on his doorstep. These were various packages containing either VHS tapes or as time went by, CDs or DVDs. Green said that any video not accompanied by documentation was of no use to him, but some of the videos did have documentation. All this appears to have taken place during the 1980s and 1990s, although the specifics are not clear.
This is an extraordinary thing. One of the packages even arrived with a purported alien tissue sample.
KG: . . . as far as the tissue was concerned, there was one instance that to this day I have not been able to rationalize or reconcile. One of the packages of materials that I had delivered to my doorstep purported to be tissues from an autopsy of an alien at Area 51. It appeared to be [with] documents that were legitimate. But remember, they appeared on my doorstep in Detroit.
RD: No provenance.
KG: Some of the documents [pause] some of the documents actually appeared to be highly technical genetic analyses of neural tissue taken from one of the alleged aliens. And it was apparent that it was probably a biopsy or a necropsy sample of tissue. It was apparent because it was in the format in which laboratories liked that kind of material. And it was replete with descriptions of reverse transcriptase analyses purporting to show that the genetic fingerprints were alien. I took that material and presented it to a subgroup that I was chairing at the National Academy of Sciences. One of the people who was on my committee was the Chairman of the Department of Genetics and the Chairman of the Department of Molecular Biology at arguably one of the top five medical schools on the East Coast. I gave the material to that Chairperson. The Chairperson took four or five hours in such attention and analysis that the Chairman left the room of my committee hearings and came back four hours later and said “I regret to tell you what I think, Kit.” And did. And said the following: “This is a clever hoax. The person that wrote this did it with an intention to convince but [the] language sounds many times interspersed in the sentences as if somebody with a Master’s degree in genetics is pretending to be a geneticist at a post-doctoral level and is supplementing the phrases from Google. It is absolutely a hoax, but it is an intentional hoax in which this material has been transposed to fifteen pages, but I assure you it is garbage.” That was important to me because this person was a member of my National Academy of Sciences committee that I chaired. Okay?
KG: This individual was a physician M.D. who was board certified in internal medicine, and had a subspecialty certification in medical genetics, and a Ph.D. in Molecular Biology. And was the Chairman of, at that time, the largest genetics and molecular biology medical school department and arguably one of the top five medical schools on Earth. I also asked the individual to do the courtesy of without any bias showing it to some others in the department. That happened and subsequently the individual’s reference was confirmed. Now, since that time, I have worked on that document [pause] a lot. And there are some parts of that, that I just told you, that make no sense.
RD: Even as a hoax?
KG: I’m going to tell you what they are, and you’ll understand why they don’t make sense. Given what I just told you, I’ve never been able to let go of that document. Some of the words in the document referring to some of the techniques to do the reverse transcriptase subtests were not invented – yet. And I’ve got that document. They were invented fifteen years later. Just in the last five years. But the words, although they are buried within what the individuals I told you said were clever hoaxes using Google to buttress fancy sentence structures, so much so that the Chairman of the Department and colleagues couldn’t make any sense of it scientifically, once in a while the words were early. And my only conclusion – it’s my hypothesis, this is not a proof – my hypothesis is the hoax was developed at the top by the people who subsequently in the classified biological programs went on to patent the technologies six, seven, eight, ten years later. Now, my work has shown this theme consistently.
RD: I can’t understand the logic of hoaxing you to make you believe this was an alien material while they are also embedding future technology, future patents, in this document, and showing this to you. I don’t understand why there would be any logic to that. Makes no sense.
Green’s conclusion, albeit tentative, is that this was a “high-level non-government hoax utilizing means to drive financial connectivities on programs that are related.” That is the most definitive statement he made on this matter.
But then there is the Pentagon briefing. How to answer this as a hoax? His answer was, on one level, that he did not know precisely why. But he ascribes it to what is known as active measures.
“It’s a very classic intelligence operation,” he said.
“. . . The idea of doing this is not new and it’s not unusual. There’s a whole school of intelligence operations research which is built around the notion of taking the very best trained people you’ve got and convincing them of small things in an active measures program that are untrue. This is a huge area.”
“In the active measures program in the agency [CIA] at one time, there were large numbers of people involved in this. There were hundreds. Okay? The idea of convincing some individual person of something that is incorrect is absolutely not unusual.”
Such programs incorporate CC&D (a phrase referenced in the emails). This stands for Camouflage, Concealment, and Deception. It is incredibly expensive, stated Green, and has been going on for many decades.
In my view, Green really didn’t (couldn’t?) explain why the classified Pentagon briefing within the SCIF was a hoax. But his reason for believing it was a hoax, in essentials, comes down to two factors.
First, nothing ever came of that briefing. There was no follow up, no additional information to confirm it.
Secondly, he states that within his areas of expertise connected to the biological sciences, he has not encountered evidence that any of what he was shown could not better be explained by advanced (and sometimes not so advanced) black budget operations and sufficient money.
I told him that my objection to his logic was that, if we were to accept the body of evidence from accounts of UFO crash retrieval and the myriad stories floating around of alien bodies, including those of alien autopsies (which existed long before Santilli’s film) why would not this be where Occam’s razor cut? Here is his response.
KG: Yep, I agree, I agree.
RD: If it’s real and they’re here …
KG: Yep. And that’s what some of my colleagues try to convince me. . . . But, you know, I agree with you. And I agree with you so much that up until ten years ago that’s where I was. . . . Okay now, fast forward to Jacques Vallee’s third and fourth versions of his rewritings of the people that he’s known in the Invisible College …
RD: Yes, in his Forbidden Science.
KG: His Forbidden Science. If you look at the Forbidden Science articles, the last book in particular, I’m a completely different person than I was in the second book. And after I saw that, and that basically brings us up to 1990. Or 1980-85. early 90s. I remember after I read it I called him and I said you’ve done me a great service because you’ve got 85 references to conversations with Kit, and anybody would read them would find that over thirty years, I’ve developed stronger [unclear] that I trust that we are dealing with imaginal information on the medical data. Abductions. Autopsies. Returned bodies. Tissues. Injury from radio frequency. Injury from teraherz. Injury from mixed radiation. Injury from [unclear]. Injury from soft radiation. Okay. I’m not saying anything about wormholes. I’m not saying anything about altered shifts of spacetime metrics and string theory. I’m not saying anything about that. I don’t have any credentials. I’m only talking about the stuff that has to do with the biology. I can replicate that [unclear] that it was all being produced in special access program biology efforts in 1978. in 1988. in 1998. in 2008. I don’t have to invent technologies to explain the technological results of these things.
RD: In biological sciences, everything you’ve seen …
KG: Biological and medical. And I’m including pathology. And I’m including microscopy.
RD: Yes. Okay. So what you’re saying is all of the biological evidence you have seen over these many years, none of it needs to be explainable in any way other than advanced human science and technology.
KG: And some of it occasionally not that advanced. And in the case of that fake document from that was dropped on my doorstep, information that today is the result of some patents from just the last five-seven years. These are more than a trail of breadcrumbs. This is a trail of many loaves of bread.
He added another element to the story. Of the many alien autopsy videos that mysteriously ended up at his door, one video really stuck with him, one which seemed as though it could be a real autopsy of a genuine alien being.
He took this video to the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology (AFIP), among the most highly regarded institutions in the world within the field of pathology. Green studied the video with three other specialists, all board certified with Ph.D.s and highest relevant credentials in anatomy, comparative physiology, and pathology. Their conclusion: “it’s a real autopsy.” But was it an alien? Their conclusion was no, it was not. What exactly was going on is still not exactly known, but Green’s assessment is that he “later learned that it could be identified as a certain progeric.”
“So what I’ve basically concluded,” he said:
“. . . is, in my tiny medical corner, I have no data that I can’t derive from very advanced special access program material that was started twenty or thirty years ago. None. Zero. Nothing. I’ve got no medical effects, no data from alleged abductions, no data from alleged MILABS, no data from epigenetics, nothing that couldn’t be hoaxed intentionally by very sophisticated scientists. And that’s where I am.”
“And I did think that the one that I had seen in the Pentagon was an alien and I did say absolutely. And it’s true, I’ll say it again. Some of the still shots in that early email were later seen by me to be incorporated in the Santilli film, many years later.”
The Carrot Dangles Again
There is another fascinating story to add here. Earlier, I discussed a mentor figure who tried, and failed, to get Green clearances to enable him to be brought into what he said was a UFO-alien related program. It turns out the story did not end there. That particular individual (who’s identity Green will not publicly reveal) died in 1997.
But some years later, another mentor came into the picture. This happened through one of the classified programs Green was part of. This new mentor was the chief scientist and senior medical officer of the “Futures” program, which was “an extremely high-level DOD committee” which in turn was tied to a major aerospace company. The program they were part of was paid for by the intelligence community but was run exclusively by this corporation. As far as Green could tell, none of the participants in the program were government employees; all retirees from various parts of government, and all had Top Secret codeword clearances.
Like Green’s previous mentor, this individual told him repeatedly that he would get Green cleared in order to bring him into ”a special program, an SAP program connected to UFOs, reverse engineering, and aliens.” That program, he told Green, needed a forensic physician who was also a Fellow in the American Academy of Forensic Sciences, and they actually didn’t have one.
This went on for nine years. During this time, there were two occasions in which Green was told he was about to get the necessary additional clearances, but nothing ever happened. The last such occurrence took place during the summer of 2011. His colleague told him, “ok, it’s time.” He directed Green to travel to a western state to a facility operated by a private company which leased property from the Department of Energy. None of this had anything to do with the DOE. It was simply that the DOE and other U.S. government agencies lease equipment and facilities and provides infrastructure to aerospace companies.
So once again, in 2011, Green traveled out west to get his clearance. But history simply repeated itself. He got to the meeting, they had discussions about many matters related to Futures’ Research [unrelated to UFOs], and then he asked, “when do I get the new clearance?” Chagrined, his colleague, who was present, said, “you will not be getting the clearances.”
I asked him if he had any idea as to why all this happened. Why the continued promises that never materialized? “Why?, he responded, “it beats the heck out of me. I am between confused and furious.”
However, he said, this may not be as unusual as most people might think. In his experience, not simply his own but others with a long history in the classified world, it isn’t necessarily unique that within U.S. government Special Access Programs (not simply connected to UFOs but any subject area) that someone may think they will be cleared for a program, “and then you don’t get it.”
I asked him as a result of all this, all these close calls, did he believe there was a special access program connected to UFOs, aliens, and the like. His answer, as always, was extremely specific. Based on his specific experience and areas of expertise, he had not seen any reason to go there. I pressed. What about the evidence of UFOs in general? Surely you are knowledgeable about this, about the longstanding history of encounters with seemingly impossible aircraft and the many accounts of UFO crash retrieval? And what of your peers who specifically told you about these programs?
But Kit Green would not go beyond what he had already stated, and I am not a mind reader. Did his colleagues actually have clearance to be in those very programs? Green thinks it’s entirely possible they did, but he is not sure. Special Access Programs, he stated, have multiple levels. Perhaps, he speculated, they were in the first level only. Perhaps they didn’t have clearances that took them in all the way.
The Weird Desk
Almost as an aside, there was another interesting topic we spoke about, and this concerned his management of what was called “The Weird Desk” during his days with the CIA. The assumption most people have had, it seems, is that Green knew about all the classified UFO information while there. He emphatically refuted this.
“When I was a CIA officer,” he said,
“. . . I almost never saw anything about UFOs that was classified. I did see some things that were classified, but they were very low-level classified. They were well accepted, and that was because of some things called Fastwalkers – which by the way were owned by industry, not the government. Everything was classified as Confidential or Secret. Everything. And they were very trivial, very small, and there were only two or three documents I saw that were actually anything to do with UFOs.”
Everything that was related to the “Weird Desk,” he said:
“including parapsychology, UFOs, anything associated with remote viewing, and my involvement with Stanford, and so forth, never occupied any more than two to three percent of my time. Now, I would take a trip while I was in California, half of what I did might have been with Stanford Research Institute during those years, and I took three or four trips a year. But, ninety-seven percent of what I was paid for by the clock on my time, that was reviewed by management at CIA, had nothing to do with the so-called ‘Keeper of the Weird Desk.’”
Assessing the Wilson Document
Upon closing our interview, I asked him about the authenticity of the “Core Secrets” document, or the Wilson Document.
He knows fully that this is a sensitive matter for the people concerned, many of whom he has known for years. He agreed to give me an on-the-record and off-the-record answer, on condition that I do not state what his off-the-record position is. He even kindly allowed me to mention that he gave an off-the-record answer.
“On the record, I have agreed on the record that I have no authority to confirm that it is a legitimate memo because in fact, the fact that I’ve seen it, the fact that I think one thing doesn’t give me the authority to declare its provenance as legitimate. I can’t do that so I won’t say that.”
It’s worth emphasizing his careful wording in the phrase, “the fact that I think one thing doesn’t give me the authority to declare its provenance as legitimate.”
He then gave me his off-the-record answer.
In a follow-up conversation, Kit Green went further for an on-the-record statement. While he would not put himself on the record relating to the authenticity of the Wilson document, he did state that “the generic discussion” in that document was “exceptionally familiar” to him. Specifically, about how within the world of special access programs, “there comes a time when those are not under the control of the United States Government.”
Furthermore, the reaction as portrayed by Wilson in the document — Wilson’s anger and dismay at being locked out of a program which by rights he believed he had some measure of authority over — struck Green as exactly right. “In fact,” he added, “all the SAP I’ve been part of except one are in that category. When I go to those facilities, there are no government employees.”
He did not stop there. “Who thinks that governments have access to the highest technologies? Why would that be true when many of the people in the governments aren’t necessarily good physicists, biologists, geneticists, and so on?” Other than nuclear weapons technology, he said, he could not think of any area within the Defense community in which any government program could hold a candle to the trillion-dollar companies that employ the best scientists and engineers in the world. “So why would anyone in the world think that the best tech normally comes from the government?”
Not only is most of the advanced technology research under development in the hands of private corporations, but the basic scenario is that the U.S. government serves as little more than a security organization working for those private entities. The impression I got from this is that the U.S. government has limited control at best over these programs. It provides the money, security, and valuable infrastructure, and that’s about it. After the technology is ready for operational use, then it can be another story, once the military services take delivery of a fieldable system.
Finally, it is at least worth a side mention that Green’s endorsement of the 11-page alien autopsy email thread from 2001 surely adds, even if indirectly, to the authenticity of the Wilson Document. After all, the two documents are inextricably bound to each other and were leaked together. They are from the same source. This ought to be of note to any investigator who pays attention to detail and has a modicum of common sense.
Clearly, Green’s comments regarding the Wilson Document bear very careful scrutiny.
This turned out to be a fascinating but tricky interview to conduct. Not because of anything inherent about Kit Green. He was extremely open with me about many things. But our conservation jumped around quite a bit, not through any fault of ourselves, I think, but it turns out there was a very complex story in here. Additionally, there were a number of things he stated that were not meant for attribution, which as I stated previously I didn’t fully realize when we started.
For this reason, I elected to do this in an article format while also maintaining as much adherence to our actual conversation as possible.
There are many takeaways from this conversation. Here are the ones I consider most significant – although others may quite possibly focus on different points.
– The alien autopsy email thread is genuine.
– Green believed for many years that the Santilli film depicted a genuine alien being but during the first decade of this century concluded it was a hoax.
– He initially believed the being in the film was genuine because he had been shown still images of an apparent alien autopsy and autopsy reports of apparent alien beings.
– Several of the still images he was shown in 1987-1988 were either identical or extremely close to certain elements of the Santilli film. He stated this back in 2001 and maintains it to this day.
– During the 1990s and early 21st century, roughly a dozen packages arrived mysteriously at his doorstep which had video and other information pertaining to alleged alien autopsies. For many years Green found at least some of these to be very compelling.
– He brought some of this evidence to the attention of other prominent experts who after careful examination concluded the material was a very clever hoax.
– Green never received followup in relation to his 1987-1988 briefing.
– He later concluded that all of the evidence he encountered regarding any alien autopsies could be explained with purely terrestrial technology and a great deal of money. He argued this is a better explanation than aliens from Zeta Reticuli.
– He emphasizes that his determination is based purely on areas of his own expertise, centered on the biological sciences.
– He believes the packages that arrived at his doorstep were most likely the result of a “high-level non-government hoax utilizing means to drive financial connectivities on programs that are related.” In other words, private entities seeking to monetize black budget science.
– He believes he was hoaxed during his 1987-1988 briefing at the Pentagon in relation to an active measures intelligence operation designed, for reasons unstated but apparently not unusual in his view, to convince him of information that wasn’t true.
– He was strongly inclined to accept the truth of the 1987-1988 briefing for many years because at that time and for many years afterward, he had been told by a prominent colleague that he would soon be brought into a special access program connected to UFOs and aliens.
– While he was later brought into several “exquisitely sensitive” programs later, he was never brought into such a program.
— During the 21st century, once again the promise of being cleared for a UFO-alien related special access program was dangled before him, with no result.
— He stated that at least many UFOs detected in Earth orbit or space (“fastwalkers”) are owned and operated by private industry.
– He gave an on-the-record and off-the-record answer to my question on the authenticity of the Thomas R. Wilson document. On the record, he stated he had “no authority” to make such a determination but said a great deal more unofficially to authenticate it by any reasonable measure.
I am very grateful to Kit Green for his willingness to discuss all this with me. Other people could have asked better questions and done a better job than myself. I did the best I could under the conditions we had. I felt throughout that he was genuinely trying to shed light on this matter while at the same time governed by obvious restraints on certain things he could not discuss.
[This article can be found in its original form at https://richarddolanmembers.com/free-content/dr-kit-green-on-the-record/
Fascinating. Everything about his experience with government-related UFO material is so odd.
Thanks for your feedback.
The “Octopus” or should I say “Hail Hydra”? …. This entire thing seems to confirm your “breakaway” civilization theory Richard. If someone as important and as brilliant as Dr. Green could be strung along and manipulated on marionette control bars so to speak – then we have a bigger problem than we thought eh? Corporate control is one thing – corporate control over and above government and/or ruling bodies is quite another. WHEW!!! Please pass the Di-Gel. Scary shit folks.
Thank you Richard. Monumental effort!!!
Thank you Scott. Really appreciate that as always.
“Corporate control is one thing – corporate control over and above government and/or ruling bodies is quite another.”
Well, at least they’ve found someone they can get to pay for it.
Yes. Just what I was thinking.
Thank you for the interview and well written article (you are definitely one of the better wordsmiths out there in the UFO community) – lots to digest in this. Would like to know the “off the record” comments but can read between the lines with some clarity.
Thanks. Over time I will unquestionably release everything I can. Should be pretty much everything, even if I can’t attribute it directly.
Richard, when did this discussion with the chairperson from the top-five medical university occur? The one where chairperson says the genetics report was fake?
Good question and I don’t have the exact date but I’m thinking mid to late 1990s. I will ask him and tighten that part up.
It seems odd that chairperson would have thrown Google’s name around like that when the search engine was launched in September of 1997. I know I was teaching in 2001 and taught my biology students about the utility of Google only then… so that struck me as odd.
Good point, but it’s possible that when Kit said “Google,” he might have been using contemporary (2019) terminology in telling me this when at the time the Chairperson might have used another phrase. I can ask him.
He is right about Vallee’s description of himself in Forbidden Science. I’m halfway through the fourth book, and much of what was said in your interview is consistent with JV’s accounts. Thanks for doing this, Richard!
I feel I must change my stance on Disclosure. For all these years we have been demanding Disclosure from government, assuming government has all this accumulated knowledge about UFOs and is intentionally withholding it from us citizens. But here we see high level government officials, including CIA operatives and top military officials such as Wilson, being refused access and being subject to disinformation campaigns along with the rest of us. Perhaps we ought to stop blaming government and join with them to demand Disclosure from private industry.
Yes, I agree. It’s much trickier and more difficult than most of us have probably imagined. I include myself. Most likely, blame can be spread around, but the real problem is how to get information out of private hands that are so powerful and for the most part impervious to the laws as they currently are designed.
Agreed, Schuyler and Richard – little chance of prizing information from private entities that effectively sit outside/beyond the law.
In response to Schuyler’s comment could it be bordering on the outlandish to say that there is no government oversight when for years we see direct evidence of our own military receiving the fruits of labor from these industry reverse-engineering laboratories. Their continued use and deployment of deep surveillance tools, stealth propulsion methodology and laser-powered weapon systems is all the oversight and proof I need to see. This has been going on since Col. Corso’s bombshell disclosure and if you think for one minute that this symbiotic relationship (and approval thereof) would have continued if industry had held anything back or delivered junk-science or failed systems or faux-systems to the military then I don’t think you are seeing everything clearly. The Department of Energy and by natural extension our military has been in-league with these civilian tech industries since the 1940’s and by all indications that relationship continues to blossom. How could our government not have oversight when they are recipients of the direct benefits of these technologies?
In the end the issue of government vs. non-government oversight may be an illusion. I see instead a schism that has been slowly but steadily forming over decades WITHIN our own government. The fact that the chasm between intelligence and other parts of government continues to grow is alarming. The seeds may have been sown during the National Security Act of 1947. The talk at the time by many good politicians was “we may be creating a monster”. Many now believe they did (JKF also believed this) and the monster continues to grown. Presidents and VPs who may have at one time been in this inner circle are today outside this widening schism of silence and classification censorship. The call of National Security has approached McCarthyism in both magnitude and scope. The statement “Everything important is classified.” may, in fact, be true today. If it is true then the intelligence agencies play a much greater role in our lives then we know or may EVER know.
Having just read through this, thinking about the dangling carrot of access, I have to wonder if he was given some of these exquisitely hoaxed documents as perhaps personally designed puzzles, which if he would’ve seen through (ie the Pentagon autopsy report) or would’ve completely grasped the implications of (in terms of the “early” autopsy procedure) in a certain way at the time, he may have found himself with the keys to the car.
I’m reminded of the infamous “Google questions” used to vet many potential employees at the tech company: catching people off-guard in interviews with sudden, seemingly irrelevant questions like “What do you think would be the volume of the Empire State Building?”, where a totally correct answer isn’t needed, but the approach and methodology of the working guess is used to determine whether the candidate is on a level that they consider advanced enough for their employment. Nothing against Dr Green intended of course, he’s clearly brilliant regardless.
@Richard: Just chiming into day thanks for your very focused and conscientious work on this interview.
Soon the frustrated Wilsons and Greens of the world will just give up on trying to get into USAPs, etc., and just start coming to _you_ for information!
*in to say
For me the Santilli film is real and what Kit saw in 87/88 were images from the non problem reels the cameraman had returned.
The intelligence agencies took 11 years to release the cover story in April of 2006 with the documentary Eamonn investigates below and the propaganda motion picture film alien autopsy starring Ant and Dec.
As the emails with Kit and others were in 2001 this disinformation had not yet been constructed leaving Kit to talk freely about it albeit in private communications.
He’s hardly going to call out the cover story now if it’s been generated by the very people he has a connection to.
Kerry Cassidy contacted me recently with this:
I have received info from a deep black source on the AA….he said the original footage is real, the alien is real, the film is real and then later some fake stuff added
This source is impeccable on these matters.
I had some similar info given to me a couple of years ago.
However it seems odd that if fake stuff was added that this is not clear in making it appear to be a hoax as nothing in the film points to this.
That seems quite a lame effort if you want to debunk something.
Ray for me was made to say it was a recreation, it’s worth watching their body language in this show.(4 parts)
I’m gonna be in Phoenix Rich so I hope to catch up with you there for a chat!
If people are interested in the AA saga please check out my group on Facebook alien autopsy analysis where I’ve been posting since May 2015.👽
Hi Richard, a fantastic interview that has left me pondering.
Let me start by imparting this thought upon you, GREEN = “The idea of convincing some individual person of something that is incorrect is absolutely not unusual.” … …. “In the active measures program in the agency [CIA] at one time, there were large numbers of people involved in this. There were hundreds. Okay?”
Well, this could be taken both ways?
He himself could have been a part of this operation?
Why keep dangling a carrot to him but never coming up with the goods if he was so well respected and trusted? Is he a part of it, or just taken in by it. Perhaps like himself giving you a statement then reneging and making you withhold portions the same occurred when he was shown the initial photos and briefings by the government.
So is Kit Green (KG (missing the B) stating the Wilson article is real, to me, demonstrates he is trying to intentionally or unknowingly reinforce there are no alien abductions (CORE SECRET) I say this after reading his comments. Or is he just stating the interview took place and not claiming the content is real? KG: Absolutely, it’s authentic. I can say that while I never actually saw that specific email, I saw the one that Eric [Davis] was describing as being the one he was modifying.
That brings in to question the cut-paste approach Eric Davis did could have changed the content to a position it misrepresents the ‘flavour’ of the thing, its meaning. Eric Davis from all I can see is a great guy but needs to come clean about this cut paste he did. He should have just redacted with the black stuff.
Green’s late-80s briefing in the Pentagon occurred that he now thinks is fake: I believe I have listened to this exact scenario before by I believe Bob lazar may have said it. They put you in a room show you video evidence, photos, or material documents. Then sit back and watch what happens who you contact afterward if you talk to anyone. The information could be real or not or made of both true and false information, its kept as a way of reeling you in later or working out if you have loose lips.
Who was the Chairman of the Department of Genetics and the Chairman of the Department of Molecular Biology at arguably one of the top five medical schools on the East Coast? And at what time was this undertaken? The test for Progeria wasn’t established until 2003, or was it? And so, we are directed to the belief that at least medical advancements are far ahead of what is supposedly known knowledge. That’s all in good and would account for a large black hole in the budget. But in viewing the film, he took the video to the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology (AFIP) for further scrutiny, well there’s a group that’s not or can’t be bought or manipulated. So they don’t do a test in front of him, they sit him in front of a video, and he later learns it may be Progeria. A lot of holes.
“. . . I have no data that I can’t derive from … None. Zero. Nothing…., no data from alleged abductions, no data from alleged MILABS, no data from epigenetics… scientists. And that’s where I am.” Does this include the tests performed on Burroughs who was thought to be abducted and all the others he has been testing who have come into contact or proximity with aliens or alien craft? Didn’t he say he had no data?
The weird desk is weirder, why would a Dr or a manager be given or access to so-called Fastwalkers if it were so low-level top secret, wouldn’t every low level top secret person be giving this information up now? I would think “fast walkers’ if there ours would be super top secret. And how can he give it up if it is top secret I assume he has signed his life away in this department. Then we are presented with the explanation there ours not theirs. And by ours it’s in private hands, private organizations. Does it conveniently fit the narrative of what’s happening today? I.e. Tic Tac. And deflecting scrutiny away any government involvement.
Loved it all but i have more questions than answers yet again. Do i just take it as truth or do i look for holes? Thanks for all your hard work Richard. I think i need to hear you speak about it now so i can get a sense of where the ground is at.
i think it’s Dr. Steven Greer who’s said that if you can’t be corrupted and therefore controlled, or words to that effect, you won’t get the necessary clearances to access these SAP/USAP; I don’t know if there’s anything to this but Greer’s been right about a thing or two lately. Could this explain Dr. C. Green’s inability to get the necessary security clearance?
This certainly looks to be a question worth consideration, after the blackmail ring that has broached the surface of public awareness over the past few weeks. It takes me back to thinking of the induction rituals of a certain Yale fraternity which has been a producer of top movers and shakers, including presidents and CIA directors, secretaries of everything and captains of industry. If they ain’t got something on you, they surely can’t trust you. Once they do have you, I suppose the mentality is, in for a penny, in for a pound. No good can come of it, it seems.
Kit reminds me of a soldier who has been captured, and he keeps repeating his name, rank, and serial number. He was the Keeper of the “NOT SO WEIRD DESK” at the CIA and saw nothing unusual. In fact, he had an incredibly boring career in the CIA, learning nothing and being hoaxed like a freshman fratboy. It’s like the old joke about poker. If you’re wondering who the chump is at the table, then it’s probably you. Yet, the CIA spent huge sums of money to hoax Kit and others like him. “If we can fool Kit, we can fool anyone!” Was he a simple test subject for all those years? I don’t buy his story, and I think Kit needs to take a polygraph exam.
Great investigation Richard. That Pentagon briefing is certainly puzzling. My first impression was that the pictures he saw there were real but the film of the autopsy was thrown in to disqualify or raise enough doubt about any subsequent autopsy material that could be leaked to the public.
On many occasions he was denied access to highly classified secret space related programs. The man who wanted Kit confirmed that stories about recoveries were true! Why was Kit denied access? My best bet is that those in the know judged that he was too much of a liability, that he would not be able to keep it all to himself. Thus these common tactics (as with Bob Lazar) of showing partial evidence then false evidence, weird stuff that can be real or not, etc, in order to plant enough doubt in his scientific mind and muddle the tracks behind him.
Fascinating article and well put together, Richard. It lays out the details – as best one can – on a very complex topic. Thank you for all your hard work, as ever.
The briefings, the promises of security clearances and the receiving of a dozen or so videos of alleged autopsies, even over a 20 yr period, is pretty remarkable . One has to wonder what the intentions were behind this. Was he being primed for something? I know you’re not a fan of the “fake alien invasion “ hypothesis, Richard, but it crossed my mind whilst reading this…
Perhaps what comes across most is the compelling evidence of a secret space program lending much weight to your breakaway civilisation theory – “terrestrial technology and a great deal of money”.
The question is, how much involvement do the government actually have? Or perhaps I should rather ask, how much control?
the unspoken confirmation of a corporate SSP has, I believe, far reaching implications for all of us – and perhaps puts a different perspective on the TTSA disclosure movement, with several probable opportunities for deception attached to every one. . The tacit confirmation that compartmentalisation and advanced technology is a reality which is outside of elected political control, have the potential to be a game changer — the question then is how much weight we put on this as a truth and how much (and it seems this is reality) was Mr Green being used – and are these revelations a continuance of that usage?
This has a mega depressives potential.
Oh dear me.
Great job. What a maze you had to travel through to get Kit to talk!! I also read over the comments of fellow sight members. When some doubt that he might have been hoaxed this is not so far fetched. Remember back to the earliest days of the CIA , James Angleton thought the Company had moles and so set up a branch within the CIA to spy on fellow agents. Memos were coded, paper trails of correspondence between agents were tracked.
I believe Kit. I don’t believe though it would ever suit his purposes to admit an alien presence. It was fascinating to see him attribute progress as to a normal learning curve and not back engineering.
Wonderful work. Also Mark H. made some interesting points too. Kudos. 😀
You worked your tail off on this one and it shows! Master Class stuff sir! Research gold! I told my contacts on one platform to skip a fast food meal a month and get a membership here instead! This is an article people need to digest. I used an audio translator for personal use only. I know mr green wanted this shared a certain way and I respect that. I just take in information via audio or audio / video so much better… I would tell others like me to not let the length scare ya away. This one was worth the wait buddy! I appreciate it!
RyAn, thank you very much for this support. I appreciate it.
On the one hand, we have Dr Green saying that he hasn’t seen anything that couldn’t be done with private industry, human ingenuity and an extraordinary amount of money. Perhaps that could be true for what he himself has seen.
On the other hand, ‘Within a year or two (“in 1983, 84”) this man said to Green that “the stories about alien incursions, recoveries, and information [are] true.” Moreover, he was going to get Green cleared for the relevant programs. One key reason apparently was the lack of physicians cleared for them. Green was excited about the prospect.’
So on the other hand Green was excited for *several decades* and very frustrated for another *several decades* that he wasn’t cleared for he SAPs dealing with ‘bodies and recovered material’.
We could interpret him saying that he hasn’t seen anything properly exotic enough to be alien to mean that he somehow doesn’t believe in it anymore, but that doesn’t really explain 4 decades of uphill battle trying to get his foot in the door (if we are to believe his words at face value) of the recovered material SAPs, or his tantalizing associations with the ‘invisible college’. If there were no such things, there would be no door to step through in the first place. Intelligent, strong-willed people don’t doggedly pursue something for 40 years without some solid reasons. Especially given that he seems more frustrated with the gatekeepers than being frustrated with himself. I think that’s telling.
Another point of interest with regard to the ‘fastwalkers’: most people in many advanced fields learn quickly to typically shy away from terms like ‘always’ and ‘never’. When he says the fastwalkers are ‘all private industry’ I wonder if he’s (A) saying that objects leaving/entering our atmosphere at great velocity are truly ‘all’ ours, which sounds a bit like propaganda (B) he may actually be privy to ET craft using long-rumored more advanced means involving localized gravity fields, ’interdimensional’ traversal and/or a form of teleportation rather than just good ol’ extreme amounts of thrust, like we have.
This also doesn’t entirely explain earlier satellite atmospheric detection programs like SAINT/Alouette, but perhaps there’s more to that story.
Thanks very much, Richard, for getting this puzzling and fascinating interview.
Thanks for these very salient points.
Smartly written Richard, so much so that I actually finally became a member. This being my first reply, I apologize beforehand for my critical review of Kit Green’s statements.
Does Kit Green really expect us to believe the US Military, or some faction of the US Military, is not culpable for misinforming the public about the alien/ufo issue? The US Military (along with the NRO, NSA, CIA, etc.), if it’s assets and income are considered, is larger than any trillion dollar company, by several factors, unarguably the largest and richest organization (considered company like as it is run by the Pentagon) in the entire world. So, he puts the blame on the private sector without acknowledging that such an arrangement was facilitated by design, by the US Military. It is flatly naive to think the Pentagon doesn’t hold the keys to the secrets, both in the military and in the private sector, simply by virtue of their lawful ability to classify any information and research they deem worthy of classification, and by their control of black budget dollars. It seems to me he is telling us, as citizens, we have no rights, we are helpless and impotent, that even the military is helpless against the secrets held in the private sector. I’m not buying it.
Thanks for joining and welcome to our little family! I take your point, but I suspect that KG is well aware of how all this mess started. But as for control… WHO controls. Well, it’s a hard one to answer. Can’t go into all of it here, but I do (probably) agree with him that the real power is beyond formal government. More later! Going to do a show in 90 minutes. 🙂
General Robert E. Huyser
shouldn’t say anything but .. .no.
I’m actually shocked to hear that. But thanks for the reply and info.
Unfortunately, most of the discussion and follow-up on this topic has much more to do with the role our government has chosen for Dr. Green that any validation of UFO related facts. KG knows this now. He has certainly played a key role for government just not the one he had anticipating fulfilling for many years. His more limited (but no less important) role for government has been useful in determining the counter-intelligence moxy or prowess of one or more of our three letter military-intelligence agencies, sad to say. It appears that any of his actions may have been interpreted as a vote of no-confidence regarding clearances for AATIP-like or foreign technology related projects. This most likely happens more often than not (perhaps even after decades) so it should be no surprise to anyone including KG. I don’t think they ever intended to confirm him, I believe their only real purpose was to lead him to believe it.
I would like to say of Richard’s efforts on this topic…Richard’s style of perhaps not getting full-disclosure but at the very least determining what facts CAN NO LONGER BE DISPUTED is borderline brilliant. We all have memories that are far too short. Media likes to report AATIP type stories as NEW information when we all know better and all this have been around for at least 70 years. Richards charts our progress toward truth in his own unique way by bringing us incremental but important steps through his published works. He is the best ‘detective of UFO history’ I have ever seen. Thanks to his unrelenting drive and curiosity some important facts and connections were established…active measures, CC&D, and using as yet unpublished science to convince experts of false claims…all of which came out in these exchanges and will lead to a better understanding of false flags and counter-intelligence efforts. Thank you Richard and Kit for making us all better prepared to ‘do our own research’ and be aware of the traps that paid-for news media may spring upon us.