UFOs & Counter Intelligence. Interview with Allan Lavigne | The Richard Dolan Show

By | January 17, 2023


Hi Everyone,

Well, I recorded a fourth interview yesterday with Allan Lavigne, and we had yet another fascinating conversation. This is more than two hours long and Allan leads us through some very interesting ruminations. Essentially, he is trying to understand the UFO subject through the lens of counter-intelligence, something he does a good job of explaining. 

Furthermore, he has a lot to say about entropy, and the likelihood that our society is dealing with that right now, and that this is also something of great interest to aliens. 

He is always interesting, always engaging, and is so good at exploring ideas. I don’t know if everything he believes is true, but it’s all worth considering. 

The other interviews Allan and I did are:

APRO Insider Speaks Out https://youtu.be/VgDj1k0D0m0

ASTONISHING UFO Encounter & Possible Abduction https://youtu.be/ynO6l80kKBI

ALIEN BODIES, Jimmy Carter, the Air Force, & APRO https://youtu.be/0xONIbuIYHY

I really hope you enjoy this. 



42 thoughts on “UFOs & Counter Intelligence. Interview with Allan Lavigne | The Richard Dolan Show

  1. Pyroxide_Martini

    1 hour : 13 mins – This looked eerily similar to something I saw except what I saw was stepped down – again its fragmentary – but there were surrounding “pods” and I was instructed to sit in one (like an empty bath) and the “Sentinel” figure / minder collapsed over top of it (this was that strange seemingly biological / technological thing that was escorting me and another being. I was instructed to remain put once the other being left (I didn’t), As soon as the “Sentinel” went on a kind of “stand by” mode I got out but that’s the last recollection (I assume I got caught). But the room itself was like 3 levels in one big room – prob the size of a small 150 person lecture theatre? Round. Top level the largest, 2nd level the pods, 3rd level the “engine” – Everything a shiny metallic and very smooth. This piece of memory and walking the curved corridor prior to this with the being and the “sentinel” is a fragment – It doesn’t fit anywhere with any of my other experiences. It’s just these two things.

  2. Craig Champion

    Loved Allan’s empirical approach to the Phenomenon. Integrating some salient points about what we do seem to know about the Others makes for a more cohesive understanding of what may be occurring, working from the premise that they are historians, explorers, scientists, traders and doctors. Appreciate his co-intel methodology.

    I’m going to be reflecting on many of the discussion-topics presented in this interview.

    Interesting application of the physical law of entropy as related to society. Notwithstanding the loss of thermal into mechanical energy, there nonetheless apparently exits examples of increasing complexity, as in biology as evolution takes its course within the larger scale of order to chaos. Allan’s point about complexity becoming increasingly unstable certainly does make sense. If the design of a mechanism is simpler rather than more complex, resulting in the same or greater efficiency, then the former can perhaps be viewed, in a sense as being more sophisticated (presumably with less potential entropy). Loved the comparison of the Cern particle-collider with the Lazar depiction of same.

    Got your point, Richard about our artificial environment, rife with synthetic surroundings awash in fields of emf’s; this lifestyle is indeed new to our species and biologically untested, which may, applying Allan’s model lead to increased entropy.

    Facinating discussion regarding biochemistry. I want the device that prompts instant ecstasy!

    Greedy, self-serving people who won’t share the tech, indeed. The human condition of power-mongering appears throughout history and certainly can account for fits and starts.

    Loved Yeates’ cameos.

    Another great interview – Allan is a true treasure.

    Thanks, Richard!

  3. Lauren2844

    Richard the longer I’ve studied this phenomenon the more i think the UFO subject may be So strange so bizarre nobody not even the most senior administrator on the bigot list really has any idea what’s going on. The fact there really hasn’t been any really close up public sighting since the daytime footage of the Phoenix “lights” sighting. However the daytime sighting was FAR more amazing. The ship was supposedly a half mile wide and flying at maybe 300 feet. If that 97 sighting happened 15 years later when cell phone camera’s became really good it really could have changed everything. Imagine iPhone video of that ship or video of the 2004 Ariel landing and video of an alien being. Imagine a 10 year old having that on their iPhone.

  4. Warwick Mccormick

    Fantastic interview. Alan has a unique perspective, and has really opened my mind to other avenues of the phenomenon to consider.

  5. Carolyn Kidd

    Hi Richard and Tracy,
    I really enjoyed the interview. I’m interested in the peptide part of the chat too. Can you ask Alan for a good source of this product? Thanks! Carolyn

  6. SunPower

    I thought this interview was great. I respectfully disagree with some of Mr. Lavigne’s points. For example, I was unconvinced by his argument about the Grey’s not being able read each others minds or communicate telepathically. One problem, as I see it, is that reading a mind is not the same as telepathic communication. When someone speaks to another we only know what they have said, they can lie or be sarcastic. So deriving meaning does not come from reading their thoughts but from the interpretation of the words and non-verbal communication. Telepathy is the same, IMO. It is just like overhearing a spoken conversation as I have experienced it. Also the fact that Betty Hill was not thinking of the answer at the time does not prove they can’t read her mind. Maybe she has to recall something for them to “read” it.

    I think he is right on track with the lost high tech hypothesis. Like the technology the ancients must have had in the past to build the great pyramids all over the earth. Some of the cut stones in Baalbek Lebanon are over 1200 tonnes. Today’s technology can not move them.

  7. Fox_Mulder


    This was truly one of the most thought provoking and interesting discussions on the topic that I’ve heard. Allan brings some truly novel and profound ideas that I hadn’t considered. Loved every minute of it.

    Thanks for bringing Allan forward for us to hear from.

    All the best,


  8. intranuclear

    Thank you once again Richard for continuing interviews with Allan.
    Other than the permanent gargle he has in his throat, the man has powerful and learned opinions.
    I have to say I agree with him very strongly pretty much on every count.
    I do strongly feel that your opinion of humans is simply far too high.
    It is interesting that he also brought up the same argument as I having stated in the past here that if you imagine a galactic civilization powerful enough to maintain a large presence here, then it must be ridiculously far far more advanced than anything non hybridized humans can imagine, regardless the brilliance we demonstrate in our ability to write and generate amazing scif or other less relevant observations. They are and have been doing and living it doubtlessly for a very long time.
    You often like to mention that we don’t want to be like the Grays, a hive mind, but that suggests that that is what we are observing. Might they not have lots and lots of biological “robots” that they manufacture to maintain their machinery? This could be speculated forever.
    The most important point to bring up is that the AI that brings fear to most is a power hungry beast, at least today, and if you have ever chatted with ChatGPT, you would not be impressed in the slightest. It is like talking to a completely retarded, closed minded robot. Think of Rain Man. AI will be the first victim when we lose power due to some CME or other forms of attack on our power grid. In that sense, a single human brain cell has more computing power than the most current quantum computer. Every brain cell exhibits room temperature superconductivity and quantum computing along with computing with it’s own copy of an RNA molecule. That’s each cell, regardless if they are being used to consume porn.

    Transhumanism will take a very long time coming, if only because it will not be shared with most, in addition to totally unknown side effects of tampering or augmenting the human brain. It will come, but not anytime soon or all at once. Genetic engineering is certainly the holy grail but that also will take a long time and most certainly not be available to most and we already know the incredible side effects that will have to be overcome. The future is of course is as hard to predict as is history, both are constantly being rewritten. Throw in aliens in the mix, and predictability goes to ZERO.

    Cheers and I hope to have the pleasure of continued amazing interviews such as this one.

  9. Scott Santa

    WOW!!! What a treasure Allan is! Please – more engagements and interviews with him!! A brilliant man for sure! Thanks for sharing!!

  10. Ted2

    An important thing that Doty says is that we have copied alien craft (Cash-Landrum craft was a copy with a U.S. developed engine). I still think you should get Doty on. There are some caveats with him, but he is the only insider (Air Force OSI) that talks about things like that.

    In a recent interview on Witness Citizen former Sgt. Mario Woods who had an alien encounter while guarding a missile base mentioned that after the abduction, he encountered Doty as part of his post-event debriefing. I don’t think he had anything negative to say about Doty.

    1. Richard Dolan Post author

      The thing about Doty .. everyone who hasn’t met him hates him or at least is very negative about him. And to my recollection, everyone who has ever worked with him, or at least known him well, only has good things to say about him. I’ve met him. He’s well-spoken and genuine in how he comes across. That’s the truth. Has he engaged in disinformation? Yes, by his own admission. But does he still have valuable things to say? I believe so. But man is he damaged goods in the ufo community. I would be up for interviewing him. I would definitely need to do some good prep in advance. Going to consider that.

      1. J-Rod

        Perhaps asking Doty why he engaged in disinformation would be a good question. Then you could proceed to ask him, why should we believe anything you say?

          1. Neil MacDonald

            I think you could leave the inquisition aside if you like, call it “the asterisk * episode” – acknowledging that many find him to be damaged goods and that there’s volumes of disparaging information viewers may seek out on their own if they so choose, but for the sake of the episode, you’re putting it aside and diving in regardless. What people choose to do with that or how they choose to interpret the end result is up to them, hence the asterisk.

      2. Ted2

        If you can pull up my old emails, you will see most of Doty’s interesting claims. There still are question marks about him. If you get him on, you should ask him about the MJ 12 documents and also about the Serpo story which apparently has links to him.

      3. Pyroxide_Martini

        I think he’d make a great person to interview because I believe he certainly knows more than he lets on. The hard part is whether or not you believe what he says. The interview, IMO, would need to focus on correcting any past inaccuracies, addressing what his role was when others said he was present (even if he says he can’t comment on it), showing contrition for gaslighting (which I believe he’s done but gaslighting is a heinous thing to do to someone).

        I do think he has valuable information to share but he’d have to be so open and honest about it and willing to explore what he knows truthfully with information to back it up and disclosures where acknowledges various statements he’s said in the past were lies (if they were)

        But yeah he’s almost persona non grata these days

      4. Curtis Lightle

        Hi Richard,

        I concur with the group that Alan is great. I hope he comes back on. In fact, let me take a moment to thank you for your work in general. You do a great job of documenting and I appreciate the speculation.

        There is a great book from the 80’s called Mysteries by Collin WIlson. He writes on many topics from ghosts to PSI, etc. One of his conclusions is that the one consistent thing about the Occult is that either there is enough reason to doubt what you have just seen or it is so over the top that no one can believe it anyhow. I think UFO’s belong in this category, and sadly I think they will stay there . We just had disclosure in 2017 but guess what? We are really no further ahead. But we will fight the good fight anyhow right?

        As for Doty. He is must have interview for you in my opinion. Either he is an incredible liar or just wow. There are a lot of people (see Gaia) that tell incredible tales but out of all of them the only one that I take (semi) seriously is Doty. Is he the ultimate lying sack or a hero? I would love to hear you interview him and hope that if you do you play nice but ask the tough questions.

        Go get him!! On the show that is….

      5. Anthony Bybell

        The fact that people who meet him only have good things to say about him (well-spoken, genuine, etc.) shows that, in looking at those attributes in isolation, he was certainly cut out to be a disinformation agent in the good cop / bad cop OSI agent sort of way. The irony on much of this is *he* likely does not even know the real/fabricated source of some of the information he passed along as that is one less point of failure regarding detection:

        A: “I don’t trust him closer than the distance of a ten foot pole.”
        B: “We did voice stress analysis and he is telling the truth.”
        A: “It doesn’t mean he wasn’t deceived.”

        Damaged goods in the community or not, he was a central player in history. In some respects, he has parallels with what would be a modern day Adamski.

  11. Michael J

    I’m imagining these corrupt groups taking over the media in Atlantis. Everyone eats poisoned stuff as they drill out the land. Great Interviewpoints. I bet everyone’s looking up peptides. haha
    I’m off sugar and processed food and doing ok.
    If you study the Kennedy assassinations and 911. They lie right to us with their suits on, like we’re completely stupid.
    I guess I don’t let things go but I’m proud of it. That security guard definitely killed RFK. and JFK was hit in the forehead by the guys Jim Marrs said did it. I’m just venting, Thanks guys https://youtu.be/OsItiPfnzLI?t=5365

    yup https://youtube.com/shorts/aBzI4ue-0EA?feature=share

  12. Jussteve81

    I think that some of the opinions and materials Allan brings to the table are definitely thought provoking and worth speculation. That said- his research is seriously lacking in objective sourcing. He uses like 5 or so specific abductions to validate his assertions but omits and ignores the countless thousands that don’t gel with his theories. His claims against the visitors mental abilities is in direct contrast with just about every contact and abduction report out there. I wouldnt be surprised if technology is involved in these processes somehow, but their inert psychic properties can not be dismissed as he does. Their “simple” technology I feel is more accurately “streamlined” but does not mean they’re “simple”. That’s a bit absurd. Also he quotes some information and stats that are blatantly inaccurate. His statements in regards to entropy are misguided as well. He uses genetic information and references- knowledge of which would not even exist without advances in complex “high” technology. Ancient man being more technologically advanced than society today is? Absolutely not. I mean if one wants to live in a male dominated society which utilizes slavery in lieu of technology with a (generous) life expectancy being about 35-40 years, commonly practicing incest and engaging in animal and human sacrifice in hopes of healthy crops, then yeah- 2000+ years ago was the time to be alive… the ancients certainly deserve credit- and there is definitely some far prehistoric knowledge that may have been TRULY advanced- but to claim the Egyptian or Roman civilizations- all of which have collapsed- were more advanced than us today is really pretty narrow minded in scope. I think the broad spectrum evidence regarding our visitors and their intent is far more comprehensive than simple scientific research, especially technological entropy. I definitely agree with “keep it simple stupid” having a great deal of wisdom- and the more moving parts the more can go wrong- absolutely- but technology itself IS in defiance of entropy. The very act of creation is defiant of entropy- complexity would, if anything, push AGAINST entropy even further, so long as the result is of higher quality or more efficient in energy usage. I do appreciate him inspiring me to ponder these ideas and I think some of his opinions are on point- but your theorizing about “us stepping into their world”, I feel is far more valid and supported by evidence.


      A really great talk and very refreshing perspective by Allan Levigne but any self-respecting scientist would have to really open the aperture-of-the-mind very wide in order to fully swallow hook-line-and-sinker the ‘decaying’ nature of our sciences in the 21st century. Oh boy! Things run in cycles, yes, but decay on the order he mentions may be over a multi-thousand year loop.

      However, we should be willing to forgive him for at least SOME of his perspectives only because he is such a cool guy, with really interesting approach angles to everything….but in the end we need to remember that he is an intel-guy after all and NOT a scientist.

      But I think he has a few things right and has validated a few facts that I have been mulling over for quite awhile.

      1) DNA in our universe is like gold, like currency or crypto (way before the crash). It is so important that if we self-immolate humankind overnight with a monster nuke, these grey little guys will raise mankind like a phoenix from the flames. To be truthful it will more likely be their hybrid-improved offspring that are brought back to the party with war-fueled aggression left off the menu. The meek but intelligent hybrids will inherit the Earth because they require no maintenance and will last far longer.

      2) And if our science is decaying wouldn’t it be at least in part because the government and military industrial complex wants to strangle it and kill off all those new antigravity patents…or claim that it must be suppressed for our own good… in the name of National Security? I think 70 years of silence has really pissed-off academia at large and they are beginning to realize that perhaps a major joke has been played on them with this string theory nonsense. Physicists have been stymied for decades on where to go from here. Perhaps this is a purposeful deception to leave non-classified scientists and researchers in the dark forever? Perhaps we should ask Edward Witten (of recent string theory fame) about all this or better yet we might, if we could, ask his father Louis Witten (who joined RIAS, the research laboratory of the Martin Marietta Corporation and later Lockheed). Perhaps Louis would have know best where the REAL research on gravity has gone (would ‘underground’ be an interesting hint?)

      3) Allan’s bashing of CERN is ironic because it will clearly be the understanding of the fundamental particles and building blocks of matter that CAN and eventually WILL lead us to the ability to build tiny simplistically eloquent nuclear power sources and antigravity amplifier engines. Careful not throw out the baby with the bathwater here.

      4) Despite Allan’s lack of enthusiasm for trans-humanism it is well on the way and when Elon Musk develops his direct brain to CPU interface we will all jack into a new consciousness with countless other minds in a way never imagined. I agree with Richard here…ET sightings will double overnight!

      5) In college I had an East Indian P. Chemistry professor. His name was Dr. Singh, who taught that when the entropy of the universe goes to zero, then there will be nirvana. (I think he meant to imply maximum entropy or randomness but I think it’s a valid point either way you express it). I believe in bigger cycles like Allan and we truly don’t really know if the known laws of nature will be the same in a billion years, so there is that. Even so we have made some advances and will continue to make advances in the sciences but we are constantly being stunted by the military hold on science and a fixation of applying new advancements to newer and deadlier weapon of destruction. The ETs know this from experience and probably have stopped talking to the MIC…maybe that’s why the MIC says ET’s are a threat all of a sudden…because they have tired of the ‘game’ with government and prefer to interact directly with people in favor of those military wonks.

      7) Viewing the world through an intel-shaped lens (like Allan does) can help us all to better see ourselves and our advanced visitors in a truer and more direct light….just don’t get myopic.


          Allan has given us an important Easter egg in his recent talks (well, probably more than one really). The fact that APRO was most likely an OPS for some unannounced organization that would be patient enough to wait over 40 years in order to silently and surreptitiously collect the data on UAP that had been carefully logged under the name of free science and independent research is a mind blower. If only Coral had known…or perhaps…she did???????

          This should become a full feature length movie!

          Richard, I am riveted to your page to see what other gems and decades-long hidden secrets may follow!

          Let me know how your recent ‘homework assignment’ turns out.

      1. Anthony Bybell

        Speaking from the point of view of an engineer, I agree with some of what Allan says as good design principles: less is more, mainly because I want to get to market quickly, I want minimal points of failure, and I want something that is as low cost and easy to build as possible as that increases my margin when I try to sell the thing.

        That said, there is the aspect of hidden complexity as a simplification. I want you to look at an enormously complicated Swiss grandfather clock versus a clock that runs as software code on a single system on a chip. Anyone who looks at this new clock sees just one black square with some legs on it driving a display and that’s it. So simple, but buried inside that hunk of black plastic and ceramic is years of hidden engineering effort where mathematics (that’s what software is: living, applied mathematics) functions in place of that complicated machine. It’s why cars are more reliable (but not as fun to work on) now: machinery has been replaced by boringly predictable software code. A valve in a carburetor might wear out after 10 years, but a couple of bytes in a computer’s ROM may very well keep on reading true for 100 years. That code is…invisible…unless you’re in the know.

        I can tell you there was 1000x more engineering effort in making that component of a black square compared to some poor guy in Switzerland building a clock by hand, but to one of those Amazon rainforest guys, he’s going to say the grandfather clock is more complicated. The key difference is we can stamp out those black squares like there is no tomorrow once they’ve initially been designed and we can make them assume new functions through software code.

        It’s certainly possible that an alien culture has designed a one piece particle accelerator that looks like it was poured out of concrete, but what is the hidden cost? Are all the atoms lined up in some very precise crystalline configuration? Does it have the secret of the proverbial Colonel’s 11 herbs and spices from some elements with special properties that have been ejected from a super-heavy star? We don’t know. The philosophy behind it is intruiging though as it shows we don’t know what we don’t know. Is it really that simple or does it have hidden complexity?

        I fully agree that overly complicated machinery can be the sign of a lack of deep understanding (e.g., the first efforts of some junior engineers are more complicated than they need to be and it’s a learning experience for them), but some machinery is inherently complex. Can anyone say with a straight face that aliens could make an MP3 player out of a couple of blobs of inert clay? It’s not happening. The living machinery–the mathematics–to make pleasing sound from a series of stored numbers is very complex.

        Aliens supposedly live in a stark, utilitarian environment. When was the last time any form of entertainment or recreation was reported as having been seen on a UFO? Necessity is the mother of invention and we may have drifted into solving different problem spaces. A lot of modern engineering revolves around aesthetics, comfort, etc. Strip those out of consideration and things get a lot simpler. Do aliens have a need for denim blue colorfast dye? Probably not, but think how much effort we expend on it!

        Regarding unavoidable complexity:

        It’s measurable mathematically. I don’t care who or what you are: if the universe is information-based as some have theorized, you’re not defeating the math wizard behind the curtain. However…sometimes what is in order is looking at a problem differently. Describe planetary motion using epicycles versus rotating around the Sun. Big difference, but both can yield correct predictions. The only difference is the frame of reference makes the calculation harder or easier. Is something too complicated? We might be looking at it wrong. It’s like these superstring theory equations. Adding hundreds of terms to an equation to get it to balance out almost certainly is hackish at best.

        BTW, Richard, you’ve been knocking it out of the park lately. These interview subjects sharing speculations that many of us don’t agree with 100% spur much critical thinking in a field that has been mired in dogma for decades. I’m loving it.


  13. BrianRuhe

    These are historically invaluable interviews Richard!

    At the end Allan says people can contact you if they have questions for him. I do have questions, yes! If you could please send me his email address I will keep it private and I will follow up with Allan. You already konw my email address. It is brian@brianruhe.ca
    Thanks Richard!

  14. whoa45


    Can you clarify the context of where Allan’s information is coming from in this episode? Is this all from the Betty Hill report or are some of these nuggets simply his own theories? For example, his statment around our bodies being containers for mRNA, rather than souls… was that in the Betty Hill report?

    Also, are you planning on interviewing Cliff HIgh again? Your first discussion with him was phenomenal!

    1. Richard Dolan Post author

      No plans to talk with Cliff at the moment but I’ll think about it. Regarding Allan’s info, I am trying to remember. He did state his info on abductions comes from the sources he directly investigated via APRO: Hill, Andreasson, Walton, Moody, and Hermann (the SC case). I think those were the big five. As one person remarked here, you could argue that, despite the quality of the cases, it’s still a small sample size. I guess that is true to an extent, but still quite valuable info. I would gently push back on Allan regarding (what seems to me) a bit too strong of a universal conclusion based on those five cases. They are very important and his insights are valuable, no question, just not the whole story.

      1. whoa45

        Did Allan essentially say that the whole interdimensional theory is just to make us feel a little more comfortable? Personally, whether these ETS are interdimensional or are from either planets doesn’t make much of a difference for me. The point is they can get here and visit.

        It’s like when people get fired up proclaiming the Earth is actually flat. To me, even if it is indeed flat – who cares? We’re still living on the same Earth, flat or not.

        Even if the ETS stated they were from other planets in the cases Allan examined, it does not mean they are telling the truth. I know Tom Delonge has talked about the Greys being highly deceitful and manipulative in what they communicate.

        Is this why you are skeptical of channelers? Are you skeptical the channeler is being deceptive, or are you skeptical about where they are receving the channeled information from? Perhaps if they channel a Grey, the Grey is being deceitful, or it’s another entity all together impersonating a Grey.

        1. Richard Dolan Post author

          I am interested in some channelers but always skeptical. Not saying it’s all b.s., but it’s so hard to verify. Especially the kind of info channelers typically give, which is mostly unverifiable. Plus I have met a few who were clearly fakers – at least in my opinion.

  15. D.A.

    Hi Richard,

    It’s just me again, D.A. I know I tend to be a little too long winded with my comments, so I am trying to shorten them up the best I can by isolating them to specific passages or points that you and/or your guests bring up in your shows as I listen. As you can see below, it doesn’t seem to be working out too well. Anyhow, right now I’m only about 10 minutes into the interview and already had to stop to make a comment.

    First off, I just want to say that I think Alan is an extremely bright, likable, and entertaining individual. He would be a natural on radio or television. With that said, I have to respectfully disagree with his assessment of the Tic Tac incident when he said that the military was shocked that they (i.e., ET) were listening in on their conversations (i.e., the task force’s communications). The military never said that, at least not that I am aware of, and not according to the incident’s executive summary report, so I assume he was basing that statement on Fraver’s subsequent interpretation of the event (and not necessarily the Navy’s interpretation). I understand how easy it is to jump to such a conclusion given the circumstances, but I think it is an incorrect one. I also think Alan may be a little biased by his counter-intelligence background, and was perhaps guilty of putting some of his own “woo woo” into his interpretation of the event.

    Now, I’m not saying that ET wasn’t, or couldn’t have been, listening in to and/or possibly even deciphering the task force’s communications; I’m just saying that they didn’t need to be listening in based on Alan’s own interpretation of the event—not in order to know where the CAP point was located (as Alan had pointed out), or to deduce that the task force’s jets would eventually be heading back to that location at some point in time (especially if a big white Tic Tac just happened to be parked there waiting for them).

    Alan’s assertion appears to be based on 2 assumptions, which may or may not be true, but for the sake of this exercise I will assume are true: 1) the CAP point was a static rendezvous location for task force jets, which would have been obvious to anyone monitoring the carrier group’s activities; and 2) ET was in fact closely monitoring the carrier group, and was therefore aware of the CAP point location well ahead of time.

    Assuming the above assumptions are in fact true, which seems reasonable, then it’s just as reasonable to assume that ET would have been able to deduce from their observations (without having to listen in on any communications) that the CAP point was a location of importance to the task force, and was therefore being closely monitored by the task force. If so, then one doesn’t need to be Sherlock Holmes to figure out that if ET wanted to get the task force’s attention without directly exposing themselves to an entire carrier group of ships, all they had to do was park themselves at a location that they knew the task force would be monitoring.

    Now, you may be asking why would ET want to be noticed in the first place? Well, that may be the most elementary deduction of them all. We know that when FASTEAGLE 1 and 2 first approached the Tic Tac it was clearly engaged in some unknown activity near the surface of the ocean that was either associated with, or causing, a broiling-like disturbance. And though we are totally unaware of what it is was they were doing, we have to assume it involved something of importance to them, otherwise they wouldn’t have been there doing it in the first place.

    Based on the 75-year old history of the modern-day UFO phenomenon, we can safely say that ET is not necessarily keen on divulging their presence to us, and outside of a few very notable exceptions, have appeared to have gone out of there way to hide not only their presence, but their activities, here on earth, which of course has been the root of much speculation and theory. In the Tic Tac incident, ET wasn’t buzzing or harassing the task force, like they were during some of the other declassified Naval encounters. Instead the Navy stumbled upon ET’s presence while they were in the middle of doing something, which we can assume with a relatively high degree of confidence they did not want us to know about, leaving them with only two options: 1) destroy the F-18’s (which would make absolutely no sense whatsoever even if they had such offensive capabilities), or 2) lure the F-18’s (and the focus of their attention) way from the area until they were finished doing whatever it was they were doing.

    If the Tic Tac just wanted to evade the jets altogether, it could have simply flown off anywhere in any direction out of view and out of the reach of the jets’ and the task force’s prying eyes, but it didn’t. Why? Possibly because doing so would have left FASTEAGLE 1 and 2 still loitering directly above the area where the Tic Tac had been frothing up the water. The most likely way of drawing the jets’, and the task force’s, attention away from that area would be to go somewhere else altogether—to a location they knew the task force would be monitoring (i.e., the CAP point). Sure, the Tic Tac could have just as easily flown directly over the carrier group’s location to get their attention, but that would have meant exposing itself to an entire fleet of ships. And if it had just flown away somewhere else at a speed in which they knew the jets could keep up, then they would have risked further engagement, not just with FASTEAGLE 1 and 2, but possibly other jets as well. Again, this is based on Alan’s initial assumption that ET was fully aware of the CAP point’s location based on simply observing the carrier group’s activities.

    If I were a betting man, I would go with the principle of parsimony, and wager all my money on the fact that ET just wanted to create a diversion to lure the jets away from where they were with minimal risk of engagement. And suddenly appearing at the CAP point location, like they did, was the most logical choice. Assuming Alan’s initial assumptions are correct, then even if they had the capability to monitor and decipher our communications, they didn’t need to in order to do what they did; therefore, I think that coming to such a conclusion is more a product of overthinking something we don’t understand, and perhaps adding a little too much “woo woo” to it, as Alan likes to say, than actually being a product of using simple tried and true logic to answer a question. But that’s just my opinion. Either way, I think the important question here is not how ET knew about the CAP point, but rather what were they trying hide, which compelled them to go the CAP point in the first place?

    Another thing to take into consideration is if ET were in fact monitoring the task force the entire time, then why did it appear to Fraver that the Tic Tac didn’t notice his presence until after he started descending upon it? Could ET have simply miscalculated the task force’s ability to detect them in the first place, so they weren’t paying attention? Did the Navy catch ET off guard? Perhaps ET was simply too engrossed in whatever it was they were doing to take notice of the pesky jets, or perhaps didn’t even care about the jet’s presence until Fraver actually started to descend towards their position, which again might be an indication that they had miscalculated the Navy’s ability to detect their presence in the first place.

    Again, I’m not saying that ET absolutely couldn’t have been monitoring and deciphering the task force’s communications, as Alan, and many others (including Fraver) had speculated. I’m just saying that they didn’t need to in order to vector to the CAP point ahead of the jets if Alan’s own assumptions were in fact correct.

    Speaking of the Tic Tac incident: I finally got a chance to look at the executive summary report, which (as you know) has some pretty interesting information in it—not involving any conclusions, per se, just details about the incident, such as descriptions of the radar and sonar signatures (and lack thereof) from the various types of detection equipment employed by the carrier group, as well as statements made by various witnesses, like the pilot, who captured the Tic Tac on IR but couldn’t see it visually, which I suppose brings us back to one of your recent podcasts that involves invisibility, which I haven’t listened to yet, but will at some point.

    Another thing of interest about the Tic Tac executive summary report (which I assume has been out for quite some time now) is if the USG contends that it is necessary to keep certain information about military UAP encounters secret for national security reasons, in particular information pertaining to the capabilities (or lack thereof) of our SOTA military technologies to detect and surveil certain types of phenomena and/or craft, then why did they release a summary report of the Tic Tac incident, which provides such information?

    The anodyne content of what has so far been reported in the recent ODNI UAP reports clearly demonstrates a total lack of willingness, and/or desire, on the part of the USG, in particular the military IC, to talk about anything other than UAP incident numbers (and swamp-gas type explanations for the Gimbal and Go-Fast videos). In no small way, the Tic Tac executive summary report flies in the face of such obfuscation by the government. The only reason I can come up with for this apparent contradiction in policy goes back to my ongoing (and I’m sure annoying) mantra about the AOA, and the disclosure genie that they had let out of the Tic Tac bottle, which politically tied the hands of the IC. Any attempts by them to dismiss the validity of the Tic Tac encounter, like they are now trying to do with the Go Fast and Gimbal encounters, would only invite a political backlash, the likes of which would make Gerald Ford’s swamp gas congressional hearing look like a Red Hatter quilting party.

    Again, just my humble opinion, so take it for what it is worth.


    1. Richard Dolan Post author

      Great comment, as per usual. People should read all of it, but I want to highlight this passage of yours as key (at least in my view): “Instead the Navy stumbled upon ET’s presence while they were in the middle of doing something, which we can assume with a relatively high degree of confidence they did not want us to know about, leaving them with only two options: 1) destroy the F-18’s (which would make absolutely no sense whatsoever even if they had such offensive capabilities), or 2) lure the F-18’s (and the focus of their attention) way from the area until they were finished doing whatever it was they were doing.”

      I think this makes a lot of sense.

  16. Clifford Ribaudo


    Late response to this but I’m just getting back from a trip to West coast and catching up. I took two “light reading” books with me, one of which I read on the flight out from NYC and the other I polished off whilst out there. These were the two remaining Ardy Six Killer Clarke books, I had not read before. I have now read the last three books she wrote:

    1) Sky People: Untold Stories of Alien Encounters in Mesoamerica
    2) Space Age Indians: Their Encounters with the Blue Men, Reptilians, and Other Star People.
    3) More Encounters with Star People: Urban American Indians Tells Their Stories

    All of these are fast reading as they are simply collections of some of the over 4000 stories she collected from the various Indigenous peoples she has interviewed all over North and Central America. But you WILL want to take many and copious notes which might slow you down :)- They are incredibly germane and relevant to this interview.

    I know I’ve harped on Six Killer’s books a bit, but after reading all of them in a concentrated manner, I have to admit that these stories collectively have so completely adjusted my “reality knobs” that I can state that I have not gone through such a “reality adjustment” since when I first encountered certain Theosophical and other Occult texts. Now that’s coming from someone who has spent 43 years immersed in the esoteric and inner yogic realms in a world most people regard as fiction! EVERY serious researcher, particular western, MUST read these in order to get a fuller perspective.

    The first thing these books do is TOTALLY destroy the “typical” and “conventional” points of view (if one can even use such terms for a field that is considered “fringe” LOL) of anyone exposed to only the “name you know”, Western Ufology researchers and authors and various associated leakers etc.

    So how are these germane to this talk with Lavigne? Well, the encounters in these books potentially answer questions that came up in your talk with Lavigne and others address points mentioned in this session, including one military abductee who while abducted and on board a big craft saw a WHALE amongst many other creatures including Polar Bears and Crocodiles!

    Reading these in a concentrated manner made me realize that many of us who are steeped in mostly “Western Ufology”, have a fairly limited view of things. A view that as much as we like to think we are avoiding it, is being shaped and engineered by our Government and other elements of Western Society. And also that we often make A LOT of assumptions and generalizations that are simply unwarranted (but understandable due to lack of exposure to the diversity of stories like the ones in these books).

    Some points:

    1) The first thing I realized is that the indigenous peoples have a completely different world view and perspective on this area. Many of them live outside the bubble of Western Media and in their own cultural traditions, and they have long standing traditions going back in some cases thousands of years, of interactions with aliens who they call by various names including: “Star People”, “Sky People” or “Space Brothers”. They don’t start with the skeptical western perspective of questioning if such beings even exist because most have heard since childhood their elders stories and many have seen these beings and their craft visiting and buzzing about their various reservations. This gives them a big advantage in some respects and they laugh at our limited and stilted Western perspective. Immersing oneself in these stories enabled me, a Westerner, to see the world through their eyes and in doing so I burst my own bubble and was able to see the limitations of the perspective I was living in.

    2) One also learns that there are an INCREDIBLY diverse number of beings coming here. Some of the aliens mentioned HUNDREDS of different species and thousands of inhabited worlds. These stories included everything from “Blue Men” who are energy beings that can densify to look human when they want, and claim to be 1 million years ahead of us, to Human Looking types, “Bug” looking things to “Reptilian” types, whose existence I tended to question (not anymore).

    3) One also learns they have been coming here for a VERY long time. One group claimed to have been coming here for over 40,000 years. Others claimed to have lived here a long time ago.

    4) Many accounts included people witnessing them abducting all manner of animals (including whales, crocodiles, polar bears, elk, deer) and performing various operations on them and then dumping them in the manner one often hears cattle being mutilated. One ex-marine, now Tribal Police officer even witnessed some bug like creatures land, get out of their ship, mutilate some cattle right on the ground, then take off to be shortly followed by some military helicopters that had swooped in right after. Those various accounts certainly seem to disambiguate the question of who was doing the mutilation .. the aliens or the black helicopters LOL.

    5) Portals – This is another topic I had my doubts about, but which we hear about in the Skin Walker ranch context. Well, numerous accounts relate how there are portals in a number of remote areas in the USA (a lot seem to be on reservations) and that when they open Star Beings come through them and use them to move around not just the planet but the GALAXIES! More than one account was of Native Americans who encountered beings coming through them and or used them or went with these beings to various places via them.

    6) Missing People – Quite a few accounts mention that often these being will ask people (after checking out their health) if they wish to go with them and leave Earth. It seems that there are many people with not much going on and/or with no attachments and who will jump at a chance to start a new life elsewhere. One homeless Indian man (ex Vietnam Vet) who spent all his time living in national parks and wilderness areas and who kept a diary of date, place, time, gender of all the abductions he had witnessed (most of whom came back, but not all) and who would warn lone campers and hikers to NOT be caught out by the Grays. Six Killer encountered him because he popped out to warn her when she was by herself enroute to someplace and had stopped over in a national park. David Paullides would likely be interested to meet this guy.

    7) Missing Bodies – Quite a few Vietnam and more recent vets from the Middle Eastern conflicts have encountered the Blue Men (energy beings who are almost godlike) and who seem to hover over battle fields and swoop into heal certain soldiers, offer to take others to safety and will steal dead soldiers who they claim to “heal or reanimate” and then take to help populate other worlds.

    8) Missing Planes – One abductee who was an air force pilot at the time of his abduction, stated that they waited for him on a deserted highway and then abducted him specifically because they wanted to take his knowledge about air craft. They have some device they put over your head and which can seemingly make a copy of your knowledge (this type of things was described by quite a few abductees). During his abduction, they took him to some underground base that he thought was in the South West someplace and where he saw many, many abductees being examined as well as a HUGE aircraft hanger with planes of EVERY TYPE. Guess that might explains what happened to those missing Avengers of Bermuda Triangle fame. When he asked what they were doing with the planes, he was told they wanted to use them to observe humanity and move around in a less conspicuous way!

    9) Do They Live Amongst Us – Yes. Another abductee said they borrowed her car!!! She and friend were driving along in the desert when their car got lifted up into a craft. They beings said they needed to borrow the car to get some of their people back into the city (LA as I recall. I guess the Muesli state is more than the land of Fruits, Nuts and Flakes … got aliens too!) She was told they would the people who were perfectly human looking and who got off the UFO and into her car would drive into the city and drop off a new team and pickup the old team. Subsequently different ones did return in her car, which they then gave back to her after depositing her and it much closer to her destination!

    I could go on, but you get my drift. All I can say is that everyone interested in the subject of UFOs and Aliens and who hasn’t read Six Killer, should read all them and get a serious reality knob adjustment. Keep in mind that these are the encounters of people she senses are sincere and who really had the encounters they said they did. I tend to think that after you interview 4000 people and start hearing the commonalities that one becomes are fairly good judge of character.

  17. Clifford Ribaudo

    Hopefully you ordered #2 or #3:

    If I was going to pick only 1 it would be #3, (More encounters …) followed by #2. Sorry I should of mentioned that in my first comment.

    2) Space Age Indians: Their Encounters with the Blue Men, Reptilians, and Other Star People.
    3) More Encounters with Star People: Urban American Indians Tells Their Stories

    These are accounts from Indians on only US Reservations (or near) and have some of the most interesting accounts not to mention give one the sense that our UFO reality here is definitely VERY different than theirs.

  18. Clifford Ribaudo

    So the “More Encounters with Star People.. ” book has got me starting to think paranoid like David Jacobs. There are just too many accounts in there (and also Space Age Indians) of:

    1) People being abducted while young and having their intelligence enhanced (in perhaps an area aliens want them to study).

    2) Then after the early encounters having a strong predilection for a particular career, which they often attribute to their encounter and which are supported by their enhanced intelligence.

    3) Then actually pursuing that career and excelling.

    4) And subsequently continued to be abducted in later years while pursuing the career.

    This coupled with other accounts of abductees having a device put on their head and their knowledge “copied”, and other abductees (particularly military) specifically being abducted because the aliens knew they had knowledge in some area they were interested in (like aircraft piloting and repair) etc., makes me wonder if the two are linked.

    One has to wonder if these people are unwitting spies or moles. They get abducted, have their intelligence enhanced, have a related career suggested to them, then after they get educated in that area are continually abducted and “mined” for their knowledge.

    Scary thought that is backed up by the warning of some of the Indian “Elders” that had contact with the more benevolent types whom they regarded as “Star Brothers” and which they considered as different from the Grays whom they regard as dangerous and were told so by the benevolent ones?

    Here is an eye opener acct from this book. Old Veteran indian elder, recounts how his buddy in 1944 was abducted OFF THE BATTLE FIELD in France, and the bud is still offically MIA. He was subsequently abducted in USA in 1945 and the aliens tell him they took his friend because they could see his fate and he was going to die in battle so they took him!

    Wow, what a spooky mess… an enigma wrapped inside a mystery.

  19. Clifford Ribaudo

    Another scary thought relative to all the UFO sightings over battlefields starts to make some sense after reading numerous accounts of battlefield encounters….. its the perfect place to get bodies and abduct people (willing of not) who you don’t have to bring back or who are willing not to go back. They are simply lost in the “Fog of war”.

    These two books have numerous accounts of aliens abducting dead and living people off battlefields…. yes that’s right dead ones too (whom they claim to have resurrected according to one story).

    One account goes back to WW2 (1944 in Europe) where an Indian Elder recounted that he and his buddy where seeking cover from fire in a blown out church at night on the battle fields of Europe. Along comes a foo fighter which turns into a massive UFO over the church and poof, his buddy is gone and is to this day listed as MIA. This elder then recounts how after he returns to the states and is discharged in 1945 and is driving back from the base in Colorado to his reservation, he (and his car) are sucked up into a craft where he sees a whole bunch of other people unconscious … (so abductions have been going on for quite some time) and then claims that he was regularly abducted but didn’t remember much of what happened other than that the alines told him they abducted his friend off the battlefield because they saw his fate and he would of died anyway!

    Other accounts have the “Blue Men” offering troops to go to other planets and avoid fighting and stealing bodies off the battlefields.

    Big and spooky WTF moment here with these books!

  20. D.A.


    I finally got a chance to pickup where I had left on your interview with Alan, but had to stop when Alan stated “…it’s not E=MC2 that got them (ET) here, but the second law of thermodynamics…“. First of all, they are two entirely separate laws, which are not mutually exclusive, but that’s neither here nor there. With that said, I certainly understand how Alan could associate an ever-expanding universe to an increase in universal disorder, but using that apparent connection as rationale to explain what brought ET to us, or how ET might perceive our technological advancement, or lack thereof, simply doesn’t make any sense to me, even if his application of the second law of thermodynamics wasn’t flawed.

    Let me explain. The laws governing physics, like any set of man-made laws, are neither absolute nor immutable statements of universal fact, but are instead a set of specific rules by which given observable phenomena are expected to follow within the context of a given set of isolated parameters or circumstances that we define as a system. Phenomena that behave in a manner that follows these rules as they apply to a given system allows us to not only predict their behavior under a given set of conditions, but also postulate theories and formulate hypothesis to help explain what the phenomena are and how they might work within the boundaries, or context, of the system, which when coupled with a fundamental level of understanding of that system creates the basis for scientific reasoning. The laws themselves do not explain how a given phenomenon works, or even why it might work outside the context of a well defined system, and they certainly do not constitute formulas that “control” anything outside the limits of our own understanding, like the cosmos, as Alan had stated; they are simply rules in which our perceived universe appears to obey relative to our limited understanding of it, which we can thus use to predict, and ultimately understand, phenomena within the context of a given, well defined and understood, set of circumstances.

    In very simple terms, the second law of thermodynamics (Entropy) was postulated to explain the existence of an apparent gap in the first law (Conservation of Energy) as it applies to thermodynamic systems, in which a certain amount of energy within any given system, which hasn’t been transferred to another system or converted into another form of energy, becomes lost to the system, which at first blush might appear to be a contradiction of the first law but is not because that energy is not actually lost, gone or destroyed, but is instead simply unavailable to perform any work due to the level of disorder associated with the system. I see how Alan could theorize that the aggregate accumulation of energy associated with the entropy of an ever-expanding universe might appear as an infinitely vast reservoir of untapped potential energy, especially in context to obeying the first law of thermodynamics, but by the very definition of entropy itself, it is not a reservoir of usable energy because any energy associated with entropy is in a form that is simply unusable, so for all intents and purposes it is lost relative to its ability to perform any kind of tangible function or work, or be used for any application outside of predicting the behavior of a given thermodynamic system. Any potential sources of energy in any given system that is available for harnessing, like perhaps that of dark energy, is by definition still associated with a given level of order within that system, and is therefore not attributed to entropy; so Alan’s assertion that entropy has created a vast reservoir of energy in the cosmos that can ultimately be tapped by ET, is an invalid one based on a false assumption.

    On the other hand, if Alan wanted to speculate that the universe is in fact a vast reservoir of untapped energy (as many believe it is due to the existence of dark energy) based on the assumption that in the grand scheme of things the universe can be considered a closed thermodynamic system in which some application of the first law of thermodynamics could be used to explain why the primordial soup of energy and aggregate matter comprising it–including the sub-atomic particles constituting the atoms that make up matter and the interstitial spaces in between–is continuously expanding outward into the absolute zero of nothingness at an accelerated rate, then I couldn’t argue with that premise because 1) I am not a physicist, and 2) such debates are above my pay band. Though one could, I suppose, argue the point that the amount of energy available to continuously act on the outward expansion of the universe should be diminishing in accordance with the second law of thermodynamics; thus decreasing the rate of universal expansion due to the inherent entropy of the system, not increase it. But again, what do I know? Like everyone else, I’m just another stand-up philosopher in a world full of stand-up philosophers.

    In any case, by definition, energy that is no longer available to perform work in a thermodynamic system as a result of the system’s entropy cannot be used, re-used, or tapped for use, as Alan seems to believe. I know this all sounds quite vague and convoluted, and I apologize for not being able to explain it more clearly, but I did the best I could based on my limited understanding of the subject matter.

    I haven’t gotten to the point in the interview yet where Alan uses the entropy rationale to explain how ET does not see our level of technology as advancing, but I suspect I will find it quite interesting.


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